Going forward if the water temperature is above 85 degrees at launch we will reduce the tournament creel to 1 fish to protect the fishery. If it is at 85 degrees or below we will keep the creel at 3 fish.
Chester County Bass Masters
Why was the last TNT a 3 fish limit, the water temp was 87+. Is it going to be 3 fish no matter what for the rest of the tnt's?
When i launched my boat, and let it sit in the water for a few minutes, the water temp was 84.7 right at the dock. That is why it was 3 fish tuesday night.
Quote from: map284 on August 13, 2010, 12:30:30 PM
Why was the last TNT a 3 fish limit, the water temp was 87+. Is it going to be 3 fish no matter what for the rest of the tnt's?
As bfitch said, before launching we marked temps around 84.
I did see 85 on my graph at one point, most of the night I was seeing 84 ...but was in 15 feet of water. I wouldn't be surprised if temps were higher in the shallow parts of coves though.
Maybe this should be a discussion at the next meeting... where we check the water temps that is.
I was fishing that day not in the tnt because I thought it would be a 1 fish limit, but my graph was saying 87-88.5 and I was deep and shallow.
Quote from: map284 on August 13, 2010, 02:27:40 PM
I was fishing that day not in the tnt because I thought it would be a 1 fish limit, but my graph was saying 87-88.5 and I was deep and shallow.
Temp gauges in boats can vary by 1-4 degrees on various brands and in different water conditions.
I think you guys need a thermometer, preferable digital, to take a direct measurement of water temperature in 8' of water, with the probe lowered to a depth of 3 feet, at a minimum distance of 15 yards from shore at precisely 17:45 hours. Said spot once found to be marked by GPS coordinates, in order to be able to return to this location consistantly over the course of the Summer TNT's.
::)
You guys are getting way to technical and serious. Quit worrying about the water temps, if the participants cannot care for their fish properly then they deserve the penalties incured for stressed or dead fish. Temps are part of the tournament equation, you don't see other tournaments changing limits due to water conditions. Those participating are EXPECTED to be able to care for their fish. Every participant is on equal ground, with equal expectations. Determining a limit for a given evening is pardong my French - Assinine. You've got a 3 fish limit set - that's smaller than most DAYTIME tournments with hotter temperatures - that's were it should stay. If two guys cannot maintain 3 fish (less than 12 lbs, so far) for 4 hours in the livewells on most of the boats fishing there, they need to educate themselves on how to do so. Sounds like you guys are following recommendations of the Obama Administation, needing to mico-manage this issue because you believe that individuals are incapable of doing so themselves. The anglers participating need to be held accountable and responsible for maintaining their catch the entire time it is their possession. What I'd like to see you do in response to "dead/stressed" fish issues is make it known - any individual/team bringing dead/stressed fish to the scales multiple times, will be banned from participation for the remainder of the season. That way you penalize those that are not doing this properly, rather than the entire group. Those individuals not willing to invest in the care of their catch will suffer the consequences, those that do will not suffer any impact.
We lost ONE fish all year due to high temps. I think our current process is fine and we are doing the right thing by declaring 86+ at the area around the ramp a one fish tourney. Both boats read under our limit for a one fish tourney.
It's your program, run it any way you like. I'm just offering another opinion. I think CCBM is being overly cautious, and possibly putting many anglers that have supported the TNT's (and know how to properly maintain their catch) at a disadvantage by making it a "lunker" tx. on any particular evening and deciding to do that at the last minute.
ok, but what about the boat that brings a dead fish to the scale twice? say we ban a regular, is that fair? these tourneys are made for the average fisherman. they dont always have a bass boat with an aerated live well. many people show up with a jon boat and a homemade cooler live well. are we supposed to leave them guys high and dry while we accommodate the guys who can afford state of the art live wells? this isnt the B.A.S.S
Quote from: bfitch on August 14, 2010, 03:16:17 AM
are we supposed to leave them guys high and dry while we accommodate the guys who can afford state of the art live wells?
Yes. lol.
Its all part of the game... and I understand this isn't the major leagues here, but I think most of the people who fish these tournaments are smart enough to know that fish care is part of the equation. If not, and they learn the hard way, hopefully it pushes them to take some extra care later on.
Last weeks dead fish penalty didn't effect the outcome of the payouts, but I know the guys were bummed about losing a fish, not for money or standings sake, but just because it was a dead fish. Personally, I thought that was pretty cool. Also thought it was cool to see another team spend a lot of time trying to revive another hurtin fish after the weigh in.
The 85 degree temp is good in that it considers the "not state of the art" livewells that folks'll use for the TNT's. For an evening tournament that lasts only four hours, with proper care, 90+ degrees, though not ideal, should be managable with proper fish care.
The 85 degree mark leaves a reasonable margin of error.
Mostly, I side with the boogieman on this one, but I also like map284's concern.
Other things I'd get in to if it wasn't so past my bed time...
...delayed mortality
...fishing pressure at MC
...bucketeers vs tournaments
...frozen water bottles
...the five plus pounder we'd have had in the livewell the other night if Dan would have just dived into the water with the net.
;D
Hey guys sorry I started a debate with this, I am on the side of boogieman too. I know the numbers have been down this year and think this is the reason why, making a last second decision. If you are going to have a 3 fish limit then let it stand, but some people don't compete because of the one fish limit. I don't care how you measure the water temp. I was just saying that when I launched my boat the temp was up the whole time which deterred me from entering.
Don't be sorry you started a debate. We should always debate the various merits, pros and cons of the rules when improvements can be made.
It's not an exact science, it's us trying to make the best decision we can on short notice. Now once BB retires and he can monitor the water temperature all over MC on each Tuesday all summer, we'll be able to make more informed decisions. If he brings his lap top and air card he can post those temps hourly for everyone to have a better chance to see what the bag limit will be for the TNT that night.
Although BB, my live well takes in water a couple inches under the surface, not 8 feet down... ;D
We're sorry if a possible 1 fish limit turns some away, we really don't want that to happen as we enjoy the camaraderie that has ensued over the past 7 years, but having less dead fish at the weigh-in is certainly something we like to see. If nothing else, it's good PR for us, and for bass tournaments in general.
On delayed mortality, are there bass that die after being released due to stress? Undoubtedly there are. And I have to think that the higher the water temps the higher the mortality as there is increased stress.
As far as frozen water bottles etc. goes, I go right from work to the lake. I don't have time to get frozen water bottles etc. I'm at the mercy of my live well pump, which on some nights I run very often. I cycle water through my live well, not recirculate and aerate it. There are lots of guys in my predicament. And as noted, lots of guys trying to have some fun in less than state-of-the-art boats. We want them to have a place to fish too. Having a $30K+ boat should not be a requirement to fish in a tournament and have some fun.
Get real Dave, having a $30K boat is not a prerequisite for keeping 3 bass alive for less than 4 hours. That's an unfair (somewhat inflamatory) statement to make, and you really should know better.
As for debate - I wallow in it.
My point is some guys are fishing in small Jon boats with make shift live wells and can't afford more luxurious accommodations. They rig up pumps etc. as best they can and are trying to have some fun. They do a pretty good job. Having a smaller limit is a way to help everyone out, and especially the fish.
If you don't think high water temps have an effect, start reading some of the studies out there. If you're pumping 90+ degree water into a live well, you'd better keep your pump on all night long. That will drain almost any battery when you turn on a depth finder, lights etc. Then the fish don't have any chance.
Uh, just an idea, how about a compromise and a 2 fish limit on those hot water days. That way you still have a chance to win the lunker pot if you do not win the tourney.... On the other hand you can rund the TNT's in October and November and have no hot water problem.... ;)
I'm amost done arguing - almost. I agree high temps have a detrimental effect on bass in a livewell. More true on a full day tournament than 4 hours. Most bass will be in the well less than 4, I haven't heard of too many limits caught in the first half-hour, most guys haven't reached their spots by then. But constantly pumping 85 degree (or higher) lake water through the well as you suggested, is in my opinion, more harmfull that recirculating the water already in the well, along with Please Release Me or similiar chemical aid, or oxygenators, with some frozen water bottles (frozen tap water has chlorine in it and is harmful to captive fish). Keeping the well temps within 5 - 7 degrees of lake water won't shock them when you drop them in the well. Keeping 3 bass in a livewell with minimal effort for 3 or so hours shouldn't be that difficult. In the high temp conditions with short holding time, I think recirculation (with additives) is a better method than running new water in continuously. Keeping them in a cooler or other makeshift holding tank may be another story, but those individuals may have to take additional precautions - and that should be on them, not the other tournament participants. That's the issue I have, that you are ONCE AGAIN, putting restrictions on the majority to help out the miniority. The TNT's sould have a basic format and those that particiapate do the best they can. To use an extreme example: J/J, in that pretty Bass Cat should not be limited so Doc can fish from his Kayak. And basically - that is what you're doing.
well, if it makes a difference, we did have our first dead fish this past week with near 85 degree water.
Quote from: bassboogieman on August 15, 2010, 07:23:53 PM
That's the issue I have, that you are ONCE AGAIN, putting restrictions on the majority to help out the miniority. The TNT's sould have a basic format and those that particiapate do the best they can. To use an extreme example: J/J, in that pretty Bass Cat should not be limited so Doc can fish from his Kayak. And basically - that is what you're doing.
BB, I think you are missing one point. This is about helping fish, not fishermen.
Yeah, and your pickin' on Doc again. ;D
Oh by the way, I'm reading a magazine I picked up on Ontario fishing. "Adding such chemicals only serves to stress the fish further, says Queen's University fish physiologist Bruce Tufts."
Keep live wells running constantly as nothings benefits a fish more than a fresh supply of well-oxygenated water.
I use my oxygenator on Fresh Water. I had heard that it was bad to use in brackish or salt so I don't. Have never been able to find verification of this. Anyone know?
I talked to the company. They have a special formula of additive (see previous post) for salt water.
I think they also have a new version of the unit out or coming out soon that will make adjustments based on water chemistry etc.
"QUEENS UNIVERSITY"? :o You owe me a keyboard Dave.
Canadians don't know anything about anything. Ever eat their "bacon"?
Again it depends upon conditions. You've got a one line "quote". Both B.A.S.S. & FLW (I believe) support addititives to help reduce stress on fish. It is proven salt (which is a part of some of the additives) helps reduce stress in fish. Oxygenators also improve the oxygen content (very helpful to fish in a closed system) without chemicals. Each solution - warm conditions, maintaining a "closed" system may be more benificial. Cooler conditions - constant water changes could be more benificial. I will add - running the pumps constantly COULD result in adding contanimants to the live well, like forgetting to shut them off in a marina area may introduce petroleum products into the wells. Or, in summer it may flush the livewells with low oxygen content water, further stressing your captive bass. There isn't a one solution fits all contitions resolution to the issue.
For every "scientific" study that says additives are bad, there is another one that says they are helpful. It depends upon the agenda you are trying to promote. As someone who has maintained several closed systems (aquariums) at home - chemicals ARE good.
But they are not the answer to all problems associated with them. Good filtration, water changes and airation are also critical to maintaning them. Same applies to livewells.
Don't want to turn the oxygenators on if there is a chance of salt being in the water.
Even though my current ride doesn't have the oxygenators, I still use the formula they make...
http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Oxygenator_U2_Pro_Formula/descpage-OMUPF.html
Eli, I have first hand knowledge that Oxygenators (electric) are not to be used in brackish water, They do react with the salt and create chlorine which will kill fish. Happened to me during one CCBM tx., I think it may have been Gunpowder a few years ago. Should you fish brackish water it would be best to rinse your livewell (unchlorinated water IS best) prior to using the Oxygenators, should there be any salt residue remaining in the livewells. As mentioned there is an additive that can be used with them that contains NO salt. Most of the commercial additives available have some salt in them, so do not use them in conjunction with the electric Oxygenators. I use the Oxygenators in fresh water (brackish, I make sure they are off and use one of the commercial additives) and do not use any additives, and have not had any problems. You should do occasional water changes when using the Oxygenators, as they do not do anything to dilute the ammonia contained in fish waste that will also do in the captive bass if you do not change about 25% of the water every 2 - 3 hours depending upon the number of bass in the well. More (or bigger) bass = more frequent water changes.
And while I am talking to you, Eli - I understand what your intentions are. I have NO problem with your motives, only your methods. I'm only expressing my opinion, one others have seemed to agree with, at least somewhat. I don't believe for a minute anything I say here will change how CCBM runs it's TNT's. They are your gig, so do as you will, and those that wish to fish them will - or won't, as the case may be. It's all about choice. I don't think this is a good method to fullfill your motivation, but it's only my personal opinion.
My kayak has a live well..... it's called a a stringer and hangs off the side in the lake....water is always fresh and never needs to be changed....except when I pee in it..... :-\
Where the heck is Rip-n-lips when ya need the voice of reason? ???
Boogieman makes a good point of fish not being in a live well for the whole 4 hours or even 3 hours and based on the amount of fish caught in all tnt's and only one fish dead would prove that people can keep fish alive for that short period of time.
I never had a dead fish....... I believe if you add fresh water every 5 mins at least. the fish will be fine. especially a 4 hour evening tourny. livewells dont kill fish, people operating them do. there is no difference between the water in the lake and the water in the well if refreshed every 5 mins. there ya go brucey!
Quote from: bassboogieman on August 13, 2010, 07:39:05 PM
Sounds like you guys are following recommendations of the Obama Administation, needing to mico-manage this issue because you believe that individuals are incapable of doing so themselves.
Oh yeah, and Bruce not all decisions are Democrat vs Republican. It is true that the government is out to get you but...
Eli, that was an obscure reference to the "new" Federal (Obama administration) regulations regarding tidal waters this year. ::)
Did that one go over your head? ;D
Micro management of our waters.................. was supposed to be sarcastically funny.
At least I thought it was.
Quote from: bassboogieman on August 16, 2010, 09:04:15 PM
Eli, that was an obscure reference to the "new" Federal (Obama administration) regulations regarding tidal waters this year. ::)
Did that one go over your head? ;D
Micro management of our waters.................. was supposed to be sarcastically funny.
At least I thought it was.
From the boy who cried Obama ;D
Some interesting comments on this topic. ::) Although I must admit, these guys all run $30K (or better) bass boats. ;D What I did find interesting, several comments from both side of the fence regarding - Pillager's suggestion to run the pumps constantly keeping up a steady inflow of water, and mine that leans towards a "closed" system. By no means the FINAL answer, but every one has an opinion and a processs. Some work better than others, so you be the judge.
http://www.bbcboards.net/zerothread?id=575039
Let me draw a parallel universe for you:
You're sitting in a room full of your favorite fishing buddies while away on a trip trading fish stories, because we all know when you talk about catching fish it's a story. ;D The doors to the room are closed and the windows are closed. The window in the bathroom connected to your sitting room is stuck shut, the fan doesn't work, and no one remembered the Lysol spray. You all ate beans for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Would you like it if no one opened the windows and doors to get some fresh air in?
Sorry, I don't (can't) comprehend a "parallel universe". I live in my own universe, oblivious to any other. ;D ;D ;D
That depends - is it next to a landfill?? How about a sewage treatment plant. An Amish farm where they just spread chicken crap on the fields? Or WORSE YET - maybe there's a bakery next door. If I was prepared knowing the parameters of the bull session, I would have brought along my own oxygen tank, some ice, and maybe a battery operated fan. ::) How and why do you think aquariums work?
Aquariums don't have nearly the occupancy rate as your live well with 3 big fish in it. OK, maybe not your live well, but the live wells of the winners.
And you have to change some of the aquarium water periodically. And you have carbon filters in an aquarium and possibly also filters for ammonia build up. Otherwise those fish are going to die pretty quickly even though they have much more water per ounce of body weight than even the one teenie weenie bass in your live well.
By the way, that fish is short, so you're disqualified. ;D
Dave, you're pizzin' into the wind. Aquariums need "periodic" water changes - true, but it's about 10% per MONTH, vs. 3 (ok I'll give you 3 1/2) hours and you can certainly (actually should) change water in the live wells "periodically". I've lost power and the aquariums have set for 6 hours or more with NOTHING running - I didn't lose any fish. Charcoal filters - true, but we are taking about maintaining a "closed" system for MONTHS, not hours. Chemicals - yep I use them in the aquariums and (sometimes) the livewells - I think it's necessary. Three "big fish" (I think the "record is 13 lbs?) can certainly survive in the livewells of most boats for 3 hours if you take unextraordianry precautions. Dual livewells - put 2 in one and the "lunker" in the other and NO problems. Single livewells are usuall 30 gal plus - again should not be a problem. Stick them in a 48 quart cooler - well a cooler is good for keeping FOOD ::) until ready for the grill.
Come visit my universe for a moment. With warm water temps, constantly running lake water in the livewell does little - except flush fish waste (ammonia). Warm water holds less oxygen than cool water - ICE allows the livewell water to hold a little more oxygen (+ 1). Keeping livewell temps within 5 - 7 degress of the lake will not shock them when you dump them in the well, but will increase the oxygen holding content of the water and, as the fish are cold blooded, also reduce their body temp and reduce their stress. Chemical additives (even hydrogen perioxide), Oxygenators or other aeriation systems introduce additional oxygen to the system. In the case of chemical additives, stress releivers also help the fish (+ 2). Recirculation keeps the water moving, and I believe this further reduces the stress on fish and aeration, while similiar to adding new water it's not bringing in warm water or low oxygen water (+ 3). Now it times to change a little water and remove some of the amonia from the well (+ 4) but you will need some additional ice to keep the temps in the livewell stable. None of the above is rocket science, or expensive - with the possible exception of the Oxygenators. Again, this may not be 100% for warm tournament days, with bigger limits, i.e. more weight, for longer periods of time, with little fish mortality (at the scales, anyway), but at least equal to or better than introducing a constant flow of water through the wells.
I think you should publish your study and refute some of the other studies out there.
I'm not looking to refute any "studies" ::) only YOU. ;D
This has been a debate - you know I like them, and could go on FOREVER ::) but I won't
(http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0060-0807-1220-5849_A_Hand_Waving_the_White_Flag_of_Surrender_out_a_Window_clipart_image.jpg)
I'm sure multiple "studies" will arrive at various conclusions . . . . . I'm just waiting for PETA to chime in.
;D ;D ;D Y'know, they could provide us with the bass' perspective. ::)
(http://www.electric-bass.org/GIFS/SmokingBass2.gif)
Is YOUR livewell smoke free?